There's not much difference at all between where we are now and where we were in 2013 in my view. Virtually none. Last year was a poor year. Arguably we're over that but only back to where we were.

Some very good and interesting points in this entire thread.



I've said my piece elsewhere but agree with Mrs B. For our short, medium and long term plans I'm the same as 90%+ on here though. No idea whatsoever. I like to think I know where we should go, but that doesn't appear to be shared by the owner. And if it was it would be unlikely to be a "grabber" for pass sales.



I'm not suggesting for even a millisecond that AP is lying but some more honesty and a willingness to listen to the views of fans would go a long way to helping him out of the hole he's digging.



One final point, even though we're not talking about coaching, Staffs FC mentioned "the likes of Arundel, Miller and other definitions of averageness". In other sides, the likes of (with all due respect to them) Flower, Crosby, Holmes, Huby, Murphy, Keinhorst, Currie, Powell all seem to be playing well in a side that is performing well and consistently. If we announced the signing of one of those listed it would meltdown on here as "not good enough" and "a lack of ambition" by the club. Yet the likes of Cas show you don't need a team of superstars to go well.

I agree, it's very close. When we've been good this year, we've been better than in 2013, but in 2013 we were better at getting over the line in the close ones. So overall, we've not made any (detectable) progress, but we've apparently spent a further fortune doing it. It just seems like so much good money being thrown after bad and still being spent unwisely.



Also, for all of the supposedly bad/expensive recruitment of McRae/Gentle holding us back, all of the players that we've since paid off/released would have been OOC of contract by the end of this season barring Arundel I think. Given that we've done no better than we did with them, it begs the question whether the extra cost was worth it or we might as well have stuck with them and gotten rid at the end of their contracts. That money saved could have gone towards coaching staff or keeping an independent academy.

I would welcome some of the players you mention there into our squad. Certainly Flower, Crosby and Powell who have been brought through in the right environment, and probably Keinhorst as well. If only we could produce young players who come through with that size and aggression and in Powell's case speed and ability. There is a reason why Miller and Arundel and alike aren't playing for Wigan and Leeds. Cas have some decent players and I don't subscribe to the fact that I see sometimes stated that Daryl Powell, as good a coach as he is, is some magician that can make average players play consistently out of their skins. They've done reasonably well and credit to them, but they're not a lot better than us as the overall table shows and indeed as our record against them shows this season.

That's the key though







Is he really [uthat[/u different to Arundel?







Amen brother!







Miller looks to be doing OK in an average side (and certainly showed us at their place). I'm not saying that Cas are average players though. The point I'm trying to make (admittedly not clearly

) is that the players are performing well in that side, as it shows in their results, and our team, man for man arguably better, aren't.

With hindsight your point is worthy of debate however Pearson has already said that last year and some of this year was/has been unacceptable so clearly we were aiming for the payoffs and restructuring to produce better results than they have. That doesn't alter the fact that poor recruitment hurt us when Pearson arrived. Who knows where we could have been now if his initial investment had been spent on better players? Gentle might still have been in charge as well.

I agree with this point. Whilst being told our recruitment has been better (some have been), the resulting team has still done no better, in what to many is a weaker league. IMO we've improved the first choice 17 (the pack and halves at least), but the overall squad is actually weaker.

I agree. It's about other teams being greater than the sum of their parts, whilst we are less than ours. Get someone who can address this and maybe our players wouldn't look so average.

We have improved marginally in my eyes, but I feel the standard in SL,has dropped. but our problem is our sheer inconsistency, against a top side- for example, we struggle against a fast defensive line speed.



Depends if you feel Radford can improve us further,to the extent that we can challenge the 4.. I just dont feel he can.



I feel Powell could,with the existing players at the club.

agree,100%

I think Keinhorst is miles better than Arundel ever will be.



Re Cas I reckon that Dorn, Carney, Shenton, Gale, Solomona, Lynch

, Millington are all names that would be equally as good if not better than players who play for us in their positions. Cas' pack I would say outperforms its look on paper overall but I reckon their backs are better than ours on paper (and on grass). As I said earlier I often think that in general we as a fan base over rate some of our players' abilities (excluding our obvious three class players Ellis, Mini and Pryce). I don't see our overall squad as better man for man than theirs. Maybe a bit in some positions and not in others. I think the results and positions show that pretty accurately.



Re Miller scoring a few tries for Wakefield - good on him. Shame for Wakefield that he and Arundel and others didn't play better in the first 20 games of the season. Obviously BS has had something of a galvanising affect on all of them but let's see how they go in the middle group.

I agree that some poor recruitment from that period has hurt us. I don't like how a lot of the current situation is still being deflected onto that, though. The cost of those players and paying them off is consistently highlighted as something Radford had to deal with. Now, had we been better this year I could have gone along with that and attributed last year to it. However, the fact that last year an alleged small fortune was spent on getting rid of those players and replacing them and this year we're no better than we were with them, has me personally thinking that it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. We have Gentle/McRae being ripped apart for signing expensive players who were supposedly average, yet Radford/Pearson spending a further fortune on getting rid of them and signing expensive replacements (whom we are told are better, but don't really get better results) to still be no better overall by the time those other players would have been on their way out of the club for free still seems to be a legacy of Gentle/McRae. It makes no sense.

We have already done better than last year by going from 11th in a league of 14 to 7th in a league of 12. I'm sure that making the top 8 was the minimum requirement set by Pearson to Radford so he has achieved that.



However last season was one of the worst I can remember in 30 years of supporting the club and I don't think we are any better now than when Radford took over.



If we get from 7th to 6th then you could argue that Radford does deserve to see out the final year of his contract but whether he stays longer than that should be subject to doing even better next year and I'm not sure we will.



However what happens (and what should happen) if we win no games or just one and slip down to 8th? It will be a terrible way to end the season and will not augur well for 2016.

Lots of passionate posts on here and a great thread,for a start lee radford has taken us backwards,and worryingly has had and still has the full backing of pearson,with a team pearson said would be top 4 or better.Our saviour this season has been our captain gareth ellis,who on his return from injury turned a certain middle 8 situation,into scraping into the top 8.

In all seriousness how many games are we going to win in the super 8, possibly 2 imo,so the season is going to end in with a few defeats,probably a couple of good hidings.Hardly a good advert for next season and encouragement for fans to go out and buy a pass.

The signings started off well with scott taylor who will iam sure be a success,but since then has been a bit of an anti-climax and our signings (who may turn out to be good) dont inspire me personally.

Fans who have stopped coming after many seasons,either for financial reasons or just want entertainment,have as much right to voice their opinion as anybody else,we all want success for our club which Iam afraid under the current regime it is as far away as it has ever been.

Pearsons blind faith in radford and our signings other than taylor are underwhelming which to me along with the merger,leads me to believe pearson has also took us as far as he can, and its all about cost cutting and no doubt pearson will be pleading for us to buy a pass and merchandise like this season.It worked with me this season and the standard of rugby this season has been dire and totally boring most matches.Well adam and lee,you keep churning the same stuff out as this year and the fanbase will shrink even more,you have lost 3 passes from our family for next season and I will pick my matches next year and Iam sure plenty will feel the same.coyh

Last year was arguably as bad as 2008 and 2009 although at least in 2008 we got to Wembley.



Some improvement this year and in terms of league form on a par with Gentle's 2013 squad (and better than all but one season of Agar's time in charge). We were unlucky to draw Leeds in the Cup this season and a favourable draw could easily have seen us in the semis this weekend.



Lee Radford will lead us into 2016 but I cannot see him taking us much higher in the league. As it stands next season looks like another battle to scrape into the top eight rather than an assault on the top four.



Pearson seems steadfast in his support of Radford and it seems to me that a contract extension is more likely than a change of coach anytime soon.

If we want to dine at the top table we should be capable of beating Leeds at home. When Pearson took over he talked about beating Leeds. And Leeds. And Leeds.



I agree that Radford will be our coach next season but like you I don't think we will improve much more with him at the helm.

Been promised Jam tomorrow for that long we have realised tomorrow never comes.

Think the glory that was the KC Stadium has now become our millstone around our necks.

We sold the Boulevard for £280,000 less than Rovers got for the old Craven Park nearly 25 years earlier and it seems no caveats on the sale.

We need to build around the spine of the team with a younger replacement for Price [ HTW not be ready for another 2 years

Pearson will be disappointed come pass sales as he wants every one to BUY in to him but thinks nothing of the supporters views.

Me been going since 1950 but not going to get a pass next year ,roll up when I want and if not satisfied not bother .

Pearson does not get it merging the youth teams this in the long run will loose future support.

The games going backwards the RL can't or don't want to see what the fans see the bending over for certain teams on disciplinary matters.

I think the point on the Leeds game is key. Our fairytale cup run in 2005 probably helped create an unrealistic sense of possibility in the context of today's competition. We went through 2006 marshalled superbly by Cooke and Horne at the top of their respective games but in the following decade IMO the financing and infrastructures at the top 3 (and maybe Warrington) have stepped on to the extent of being currently unassailable. Sure, if we were more successful over time we'd leverage better value from the cap. But the collective cost that we can afford to spend on first team and academy and coaching staff is dwarfed by what Wigan/Leeds/Saints can via both materially higher gates, more control over stadium income, and wealthier, RL-devotee boards.



I buy in part the argument that investing Pritchard's (for the sake of argument) salary into coaching would help somewhat, but to me it's a bit like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. The total income of the club is simply not enough to compete against the top 3 consistently as exemplified in the Leeds game when they had 6 out.



In this context, maybe 7th isn't that catastrophic, but simply a reflection of where we are and can expect (or hope, if reduced pass sales force first team cuts) to be.



The communication with fans from the club needs to treat us a little less patronisingly IMO. Gung-ho promises of Top 4 are pointless now. Some measured acknowledgement of mistakes made and re-calibrating our stated ambition would IMO engage fans more effectively than repeated bluster and borderline nonsense. We're grown up enough to face the truth. The top 3 have huge competitive advantage which we can't match at the moment. Let's have a bottom-up plan for recovery that's believable and medium term.

brilliant thread this!! with many well thought out,reasoned intelligent posts. I am hoping adam pearson will read them and really take into account these heartfelt opinions of people who at the end of the day just want our club to be the best it can be.I of course wont walk away as the "habit "has been with me for almost 60yrs now so I cant kick it !!?

What do you define as a close one? Because in 2013 we managed to win 4 games by less than 10 points, that included the non event game away at Wigan after the Cup Final.

Which is also the same number of games we've won by the same margin this year.



When Gentle arrived he said that the one thing he wanted to do was narrow the gap between our best and worse performances. IMO it's been Radford that has achieved that this year.

Some great points made on this thread , Maybe it's time to see the club take out another fan survey . I could go a little way to re connect with the supporters .

Actually that's open to debate. Last year was a definite backward step but this season has been on a par with Gentle's last season in charge and could - only could, mind - end up being better in terms of league position. Of course we have a better squad now, at least in key positions.

As long as James Rule doesn't organise it

you mean like last week against Wigan?

I wish people would stop having a pop at Gentle.Overall he was doing a good job.He had recognised he made a mistake going for a smaller mobile pack and started to rectify that with the signing of Paea.

He also had a lot of bad luck with player injuries yet we still finished sixth.

You may say some of the signings McRae/Gentle made cost the club money but the Wembley appearance put a lot of money back into the club which people conveniently forget.

The interesting thing about this thread is the number of posters who are at last seeing the limitations of Radford and feel money would be better spent on trying to attract a quality coach to the club.

I just think Pearson has lost the plot.if he thinks the signing of Pritchard will but bums on seats he is sadly mistaken.

maybe it will take pass sales to decline to around five thousand for the penny to drop.

I said on Twitter the other day that if AP sets out that we will get jam tomorrow (with the usual "no guarantees" caveat), I'd be happy to wait if there was loads of jam and it lasted a while. I'm realistic enough to know that success isn't round the corner, so no more of this Top 4 stuff, just a sensible approach that takes the fans with him.



Mrs B's suggestion of an AP "State of the Nation" speech (with New Order soundtrack) is a must.